Case Study: How André Chaperon, Todd Brown and Rocky Ullah Turn Tiny Lists of Less Than 1,000 Subscribers Into $100,000+ In Sales

Matt   26

Updated on December 22, 2019

"Today’s guest post comes from Robert Allen, a direct response copywriter and email expert. Robert’s worked with some of the biggest marketers and online business people on the planet... Folks like Ramit Sethi, Dr. Axe, Agora Financial and more. After sending over 1 billion emails and helping generate over $50 million in sales, he noticed a secret Andre Chaperon and other top marketers were using to get incredible results from small email lists. It’s called a Multi-Page Presell Site and it might change the way you think about building your email list from today on. Take it away, Robert!"

- Matt from Thrive Themes

In this post, I’m going to reveal a cutting edge strategy Andre Chaperon, Todd Brown and Rocky Ullah are using to turn tiny mailing lists of fewer than 1,000 people into 6 and 7-figure sales.

But I won’t just show you what they’re doing. I’ll also give you a 5-step process you can use to get big results from a small email list of your own. Plus, I’ll reveal two additional ways to get even more income from your email subscribers... that almost nobody is using right now.


But before we get into that, l need to tell you a quick story about two clients. Each had dramatically different approaches to building their email list. And, as you’ll see, it made a huge difference in their results.

This story is what led me to discover the true power of what Andre created with Multi-Page Presell Sites.

How David Beat Goliath

Late last year, I put everything I knew into a product launch for a client.

The client, which I’ll call Goliath Corp., had 151,289 email subscribers.

When Goliath Corp. reached out, they proudly told me, “Our goal is to make a million dollars with our next product launch.”

Since I’d built multiple 7 and 8-figure campaigns before, I was up for the challenge and started writing the "perfect" email funnel to get us there.

I wrote emails triggered based on clicks… Emails specifically for people who opened other emails… Emails for people who made it to the order form but didn’t buy.

When all was said and done, there were 26 emails spread across 9 days.

This was the launch plan:

26 email launch plan map

That’s follow up emails… for follow up emails… of follow up emails.

On the surface, the email campaign had everything it needed to succeed... or so we thought.

Then, Launch Day arrived and the first sales email went out.

When you click send on an email to 151,289 people, you expect a flood of orders to come through.

But when this email went out, we saw nothing for 10 minutes… 20 minutes… a full half hour went by and nothing. We kept anxiously refreshing the sales report, but sales barely trickled in.

“Maybe the payment system wasn't working?”

We double-checked the order form and payment processor but everything seemed fine.

“Maybe we just need to give the list more time? It is early after all.”

Time wasn’t the issue, though. The issue was something much deeper.

In the end, we closed the launch with $27,726 in sales.

Making $27k from 150,000+ subscribers? That's bad.

If you do the math, you’ll see the campaign made only $0.18 per subscriber (which is not good).

To make things worse, consider the costs of the staff, the extra support we needed during the launch and the months worth of work that went into planning a big funnel like that and you're left with barely any profit.

A couple months later, I was working with another client. Let’s call them David Inc.

David Inc.’s email list was just 5,854 people.

Instead of pulling out all the stops, we decided to keep things simple.

The funnel consisted of just five emails. The first two were purely content and the last three linked over to a sales page. It looked something like this:

5 emails. That's it! So simple.

But here’s the crazy part: This tiny list made $63,808 in 5 days.

That’s more than double the sales of Goliath Corp’s launch with a list 1/25th of its size.

In other words, David Inc.’s email subscribers were 59x more valuable than Goliath Corp’s.

How is that possible? How did the smaller list perform so much better?

How did David Inc. beat Goliath Corp. with a simpler funnel and fewer emails?

Turns out this had very little to do with the launch strategy and everything to do with the quality of each client’s email list.

Why A Bigger List Isn’t Always Better

In October 2018, Todd Brown created a short promotion for his Agora Financial Traffic-Generation System.

In that launch, he made over $1.1 million… in 48 hours.

Guess how many people were on Todd’s launch list?

A. 100,000
B. 50,000
C. 25,000
D. Fewer than 10,000
If you guessed “D”, you were right.

With a list of just 7,661 people, he sold 400 copies of his program at $2,997 a pop. And he could have sold more, but he capped his program for a maximum of 400 customers - it sold out!

That translates into $156.48 per subscriber.

With those kind of numbers, all it takes is 1,000 subscribers to make over 6-figures from a single product launch.

I point this out because I see people everywhere talking about how you need tens of thousands of email subscribers to make any money online.

“Build your list,” they say.

“Get 10,000 subscribers,” they shout.

But the truth is you don’t need TONS of subscribers if you have the RIGHT people.

Look at a comparison of these three email lists:

You'll see that higher value is possible on smaller lists.

Todd Brown and David Inc.’s teeny-tiny lists absolutely CRUSHED Goliath Corp’s larger, less engaged list.


Because Todd Brown and David Inc. never set out to build the biggest lists possible.

Their goal was to attract only the most engaged people and repel the tire-kickers and time-wasters (I’ll show you how they did it below).

While it might seem like a subtle shift, the approach dramatically changes your business.

Instead of settling for 20% open rates and 1% click-to-open rates, I’ve had clients using the strategy that David Inc. and Todd Brown used see 70%+ open rates and 40%+ click-to-open rates.

Results like this are possible if you grow your list the right way.

But more importantly, instead of making less than $1 per subscriber, people using this strategy are able to make $10 - $200 per person on their list.

How would those kind of numbers change your business?

I think you’d see you don’t need an email list the size of New York City to make your business work.

You can have a list a small as Woodbury, Tennessee, and make more than enough to cover all your bills and more.

When you have the right people, a small list can be highly profitable.

How Small, Highly Profitable List Are Built (PLUS, What Traditional List-Building Gets Wrong)

Once upon a time, businesses realized that they could get you to fork over your email address if they dangled the promise of value like this:

"Give us your email and then we'll give you value!"

You might know these as lead magnets, opt-in offers, squeeze pages, etc.

Whatever you call them, the rule is generally the same: The better your bribe, the bigger your list. And the bigger your list, the more money you make.

But is it true?

In Goliath Corp’s case, absolutely not.

Their site was covered in opt-in boxes and pop-ups where you could get coupon codes, download ebooks, get free video series, and more.

This worked really well for getting lots of subscribers. But the value of each subscriber was low.

David Inc. and Todd Brown were doing something different.

Instead of dangling value behind an opt-in, they gave value upfront through a series of webpages, like this:

4 pages on ILB Elite Basketball's site before the opt-in is even seen

Note: I circled the actual opt-in in red above. It’s just a little button on the 5th page in a series of landing pages. If you’re looking at this article on your phone, you probably can’t even see it! (Because it’ll be too small).

Instead of focusing on the number of subscribers, David Inc. and Todd Brown focused the on the quality of the subscribers they got.

Think about the type of person who makes it to the end of a 5 or 7-part series before opting in to your list. How much more interest and engagement does that show?

The mechanism that David Inc. and Todd Brown used to build a small, highly profitable list is what Andre Chaperon created and called a Multi-Page Pre-sell Site (MPPS). 

Introducing The Multi-Page Pre-sell Site (MPPS)

A Multi-Page Presell Site is the product of Andre's 15 years of work and testing to find the best mechanism that EARNS customers.

As the name suggests, it’s an email capture system, built across a series of pages you click through. And it actually creates high value, engaged email subscribers.

Important! This strategy isn’t just about eliminating people and only dealing with the most serious, highest value customers.

It works even if you don’t have a lot of traffic to your site because it actually turns passive readers into better more engaged fans.

The way the content is sequenced and laid out allows you to pique a person's interest so that they become more valuable to you -- even if the same person holds little-to-no value to someone else.

In other words, this isn’t just about turning people away. It’s about transforming people into more serious, engaged readers and buyers.

And it’s a secret Andre Chaperon created and his students began using to get 70%+ open rates, see list conversion rates as high as 30%, and build 7-figure businesses fast. 

Two Real Life Case Studies of Successful Multi-Page Pre-sell Sites

In February 2018, Andre Chaperon used an MPPS to sell his course, Sphere of Influence.

In that release, he created a 7-part mini-series (seen below):

All that content spread across separate pages

You had to make it all the way to the 7th page before he ever asked you to opt in.

The prior 6 pages were stacked with valuable lessons and 100% free to read. No opt-in required.

In other words, he gave value upfront and placed his opt-in in a spot that ensured only the most engaged people got on his list.

The result? He made $269,102 from a small list of only 1,856 subscribers.

But even that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Consider this: On average, those subscribers were worth $144.99 each.

At that level, it only takes a list of 690 people to make over $100,000.

Doesn’t that seem way more attainable than a giant list of hundreds of thousands of people?

Another example comes from Rocky Ullah, a student of Andre’s work.

Rocky is the guy behind I Love Basketball Training.

Rocky's got over 1.4 million subscribers on his YouTube channel

If you go to Rocky’s site, you’ll see there's no way to opt-in for anything right away.

The only way to get on his list and buy his products is to click through his MPPS, seen below.

3 pages of awesome content + an opt-in on the 4th.

Does it work?

Well, today his business does over 7-figures per year. So I’ll let you be the judge of that.

The point is an MPPS is a powerful way for anyone to grow their business and get 10-100x the results by focusing on quality email leads.

5 Steps To Create Your Own MPPS

If you want to create an MPPS for your online business, Andre has given me his blessing to share a 30,000 ft view of his MPPS framework (which he teaches in much more depth in his paid Lean Business for Creators course).

I’ve broken it down to a 5-step process you can use to start getting great results from tiny email list as well. At a high level, this is what you’ll build:

Each page has a unique goal.

You’ll be creating four pages. (Note: These are not traditional blog posts. They’re stand alone landing pages).

The first two pages have buttons that allow you to click through to the next page in the series.

The third page delivers a piece of valuable content and presents the first opt-in. The fourth page is where you present your offer (If you have one. If not, it’s just a thank you page teasing the content to come).

When it comes to the content of these pages, it breaks down like this:

  • Page 1: Present the problem in a story format.
  • Page 2: Poke at that problem until it is visceral.
  • Page 3: Present the solution to the agitated problem.
  • Page 4: Offer - This is where you pitch your product or service or tease what’s to come

I use the acronym 3PO for short.

With practice, you can “beef up” your MPPS to be 6+ pages like Todd, Andre and Rocky’s are. But in the beginning, 4 pages following the 3PO framework is all you need to start seeing great results. Here’s how to create one of your own.

Step 1. Present the problem in story format

All the best MPPS start with a compelling story. We, as humans, are wired to see how stories unfold — and that’s precisely why they work. They keep us clicking those buttons at the bottom of each page to learn more.

For example, Andre Chaperon’s MPPS starts with a conversation between him and a friend about the dark side of product launches:

Looks like a good story awaits you, right?

The friend tells Andre controversial truths about what goes on behind the scenes of product launches. In short, it can be dirty stuff.

For Andre’s market, he knows everyone likes to go around bragging about how their launch did 7-figures.

But they rarely talk about the stress and strain that goes on behind the scenes.

By exposing this problem and presenting it in a story format, Andre gets his target audience reading every word on the page.

Todd Brown’s MPPS also opens with a story. It’s about him going to an invite-only meeting in Baltimore, MD to see some of the top online entrepreneurs on the planet. At the meeting, they talk about what’s really working in the world of advertising.

Note: Neither of them are giving a solution (that comes much later). They’re just bringing up a major pain point for their readers. They then invite the reader to continue along if they want to see a way to fix this issue.

If you need help coming up with a story to tell:

  • Get on the phone with your readers or customers and ask them about a problem they’re facing. Ask them how they’re trying to solve it. Also, ask them where they’re getting stuck. Telling the story of your conversation with a reader can be the perfect way to open your MPPS.
  • Also, look on Reddit and Quora for questions that keep getting asked again and again. Use that as a jump off point for your research into a potential problem you can build a compelling story around.

Remember, on the first page, you’re simply going to discuss the problem and present people with the option to learn more about it.

Step 2. Poke the problem

Once you find the problem, the next step is to poke it and pour salt onto the wound.

To go back to Andre’s example, the first page of his MPPS simply suggests there is a problem lurking for online business owners who use launches to sell their products.

On page two, he digs deep into the actual numbers. He proves just how bad traditionally designed product launches can be.

Eye opening and juicy content keeps the readers reading.

By including this breakdown, he takes it from the vague idea “that this is a problem” down to the ground level. And he makes it really hurt by showing examples of how much money is wasted. For example, out of $1.1 million in sales, they would only get to keep $43,000. Seeing that is painful for his audience.

For Rocky, he opens by talking about the problem of not knowing how to score in real basketball games. Then on page two, he backs up that claim with proof by showing top players and how they’re all great scorers: 

Page two is all about drilling deep into the issue. You need to backup your claims, provide proof and really make a strong case that this problem needs to be addressed.

The goal of this page is find a way to dig a little deeper into the problem you identified at step one.

Step 3. Present the solution (and tease the fact that there is more)

Page three is all about giving value. You want to put some of your best material for solving the problem you identified at step one and two on this page.

Rocky Ullah does a live basketball shooting training:

Rocky Ullah shows the results he gets for players.

But the same principle applies to any niche.

For example, if your market is people struggling to lose weight, give them a 3-step morning and evening routine that makes progress almost effortless.

If your audience is trying to learn Spanish, give them a cheat sheet of the 100 most versatile words to learn first.

If you were writing about becoming a graphic designer, give your readers an indesign template they can swipe.

This page can be summed up in one word: GIVE.

The value that people get on this page is similar what they might get from a traditional lead magnet.

But the key is to give it to them without them even having to opt in.

Obviously don’t give away your entire course or product. But I see a lot of people who worry about giving their best stuff away for free when they really shouldn’t.

In fact, your only worry should be that you’re not giving them enough.

This way when you tell them they can opt in and get even more advanced material, their first thought will be, “If they gave that away for free, what do they make you opt in for?”

Step 4. Put your opt in at the end and make your offer

After delivering the valuable solution in Step 3, it’s time to make your first ask of the reader: To opt-in.

The way you do it will depend on what you have to offer and the way you sell it.

If you have an online course, you can do what Rocky Ullah does and ask them to opt in for a special link to an advanced training plus a sneak peek into his course.

If you sell a service, this is where you can get people to opt in for a consultation and know they won’t waste your time.

If you sell a physical product, you can offer to share a link where people can learn more about it and save money.

Step 5. Layer in Open Loops, Cliffhangers, and Email Follow Up

Even though this funnel makes it a lot easier to sell your stuff (because you’re only dealing with serious buyers), it doesn’t eliminate the need for marketing altogether.

One of the keys to this working is to make each page in the series pull the reader through it with a series of cliffhangers.

Notice how Todd Brown puts a juicy teaser of what’s coming on the next page at the bottom of each section:

Dangling that carrot to get them to continue.

You want to create a similar effect in the MPPS that you build. So after you write a first draft of your 3PO, I recommend you go back through it and make sure each section ends on a compelling cliffhanger to keep the reader going.

For example, don’t just say, “Continue to page 2 to learn more.

Say, “If you’re interested in learning more about this little-known secret and how you can use it in your business, click “continue” below. I’ll give you a behind the curtain look at how it works. Plus, you’ll get a glimpse at one of the strangest business mysteries on earth.”

Just make sure that the idea at the end of each section is compelling enough that your reader has to keep going to get the answer.

Also, just because someone made it to the end of this series doesn’t mean you won’t have to follow up with them!

You should definitely build an email sales funnel to sell your products while you sleep.

But when you do this right, you won’t be chasing readers who opted-in for your free ebook and left it sitting in their inbox collecting digital dust.

You’ll send emails and get people opening and clicking in droves.

You’ll announce a new product and get conversion rates that make CROs do a double take.

You’ll be able to build a real, sustainable business without needing tens of thousands of followers. That’s the power of choosing to talk to the right people and not just everyone. 

Two Fast and Furious Ways To Get MPPS-Like Results (Without All The Writing)

It’s no secret that creating a series of pages like this takes some time and copywriting chops. With the steps above, it can go faster than you’d expect. But it won’t be done overnight.

That’s why I want to show you two more options you can deploy right now.

I’ve tested both of these techniques and they can be a powerful way to up the quality of your email list and increase your sales - instantly.

Option 1: If you have a free training, remove the first opt-in.

An easy way to get MPPS-like results without any writing at all is to take a free training course or webinar and simply remove the first opt in.

This scares some people. “But - what if they leave?”

But I counter by saying, “What if they opt in and do nothing?” 

Isn’t it the same?

For example, a few months ago, I consulted with a client who built his business with webinars. It was the only way he sold his course.

And when I looked at the stats, I immediately knew this was a case where a Gated Squeeze Page would change everything.

Here’s what I saw:

50% of the people who arrived at the registration page signed up for the webinar.

From there, only about half showed up to actually watch it.

Then, only 25% of those people actually made it to the portion of the video where he talked about his product.

And of that 25%, just 1 in 10 people would buy.

When all the numbers shook out, it looked like this for every 1,000 people that visited the webinar registration page: 

Only 6 customers from 1000 registrations.

That meant that 994 out of 1,000 people weren’t interested in what he had to say.

So we switched the whole equation on its head.

We took away the initial opt in and rewrote his webinar so that it was only the valuable content. For anyone who wanted to learn more and keep going, they could opt in at the end of the training and get additional information about his course.

The results were insane: 

Now we were getting 37 sales from the same volume of traffic 

For every 1,000 that visited the page, 400 watched the training and made it to the portion where they could opt in to learn more about his course.

Of those 400 people who made it to the end of the video, roughly 200 (or 50%) opted in.

Of those 200, 37 (or 18.5%) would buy.

Said another way: We grew his business by 516% by removing the opt in, giving value first and delivering the sales message to only the most serious prospects.

Also note: the feedback loop on this kind of funnel is incredible. When you create lookalike audience of the most serious people, Facebook keeps getting you better and better leads. So while he’s 5x’ed his conversions, he’s also seen a reduction in the cost per lead, creating an even bigger effect on his bottom line.

Option 2: If you have an ebook, break it up and beef up the sections

Another quick and dirty way to get MPPS-like results is to take your current opt in offer and break it up into a series of short lessons.

For example, Thrive Themes copywriter extraordinaire, Matt Totten, has a guide on his site Modern Manimal about Wild Sleep Habits for High Tech Humans.

Made with Thrive Leads, of course!

It’s a short, 3-page guide packed with tips on getting 7+hours of sleep a night.

If he wanted to, Matt could easily turn this opt-in offer into an MPPS.

All he’d have to do is add a bit more content to his lead magnet, deliver the content across multiple pages and put the opt-in at the end.

Understand, Matt’s subscriber count would take a hit. But we’re sacrificing quantity for quality.

I recommend this option to many clients because it’s one of the simplest ways to start building a high-quality email list while you work on your MPPS.

No opt-in offer yet?

If you don’t have an opt-in offer yet, Thrive University has a 100% free course that will help you finish your opt-­in offer TODAY. Just follow 6 steps, and you’ll have a successful offer for your website!

Don't have a Thrive University account yet? Sign up for free right here.

Are You Ready To Build A Smaller, Hyper Engaged Audience of Buyers?

Bigger isn’t always better. In fact, as you’ve seen, a small list can be extraordinarily powerful.

I’m not saying you have to give up your current lead magnets and opt-in gifts, but I highly recommend you try building a MPPS because the shift in results can be game-changing.

For the businesses who’ve implemented this technique, it’s helped them consistently get open rates above 50%, make $10 - $150+ per subscriber, and build 7-figure businesses fast.

The same can be true for you. Now go get ‘em!

Leave a comment to let me know what you think of this marketing strategy, or if you have any questions about how it all works!

Standing on The Shoulders of Giants:

I wanted to give a special shout-out to the man who’s contributed most to my understanding of creating sequences like this, Andre Chaperon

I’ve featured him here because he’s the creator of the MPPS method. But this just scratches the surface of the content on his site and in his premium courses. Without Andre’s work, this method for getting incredible results from small email list wouldn’t be as systematized as it is today.

Thanks to his contributions, we can all stand on the shoulders of the giant who came before us and see further. If you’re reading this, thanks, Andre!

Author: Robert Allen

Robert Allen is a marketing junkie gone rogue. After 5 years in the trenches of digital marketing, he started Kings of Conversion, a podcast to share the best conversion strategies to the rest of the world.

by Matt  May 7, 2019


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Leave a Comment

  • Great write up Robert. I was fortunate to get on the beta release of Sphere of Influence (André’s core training on the MPPS) and they work *really* well, across a very wide range of niches.

    One element I found to focus on in the copy is to breakdown the beliefs someone would need to buy into to get from where they are (the land of pain and problems) to the decision to buy the solution offered.

    Adding the core beliefs relevant at each stage of the MPPS has always helped lift the quality of the subscribers and subsequent EPLs.

  • That’s amazing. Always thought about something like that but using quizzes (like Ramith does –> Do you know your earning potential?).
    I love the simplicity of it all, also reminds me Jeff Walker Sideway letter.
    Anyway thank you Robert, nice guest post and as I was about to build my website, I’ll use this method right out of the box !

  • This is seriously fabulous! You have my wheels spinning.

    Also wanted to say I recently purchased one of Andre’s courses and My. Mind. Was. Blown. It was the best investment ever.

    Thank you both! 🙂

    – Christina

  • Wow. This is so brilliant that I can’t even tell whether there’s a conflict of interest anymore (in a good way). It seems that after going through techniques such as Ultimate Guide and Open Ebook, there isn’t only a single person who lands on the idea of giving first, qualifying the leads and presenting the offers as a bonus. And when you think about it, isn’t it the way business should be done?

  • This is a great case study with so many lessons on the value of high-quality email lists, removing opt-in forms, multi-level presale pages and delivering value upfront. This is true that long lists with sloppy open and click-through rates are no good. All the rage is about building big email lists. But the truth is establishing yourself as an authority is more important than the building low-quality email lists. Appreciate it.

  • Awesome! Thanks for sharing… This could work as well as funnel to present an online training after they already opt-in?

  • So impressed by this piece – I can’t wait to try it out! It seems a good way to get over the offer saturation that starts to affect readers.

  • amazing insight and very different approach to building a list. These ideas should work for list segmentation as well, once you get a subscriber? Thank you, Robert

  • Incredible content, thanks for that.

    I am a wedding photographer and my niche is exclusively brides who are getting married within a year.

    I need only 30 brides a year, an average of 3 contracts a month, according to the value of my work.

    Taking into consideration that competition in the ofline market is getting tighter, I ask if this is a good option to create my list of brides who are really interested in my work.

    I’m sorry for English (google), I speak here from Brazil.

  • Excellent…..

    Having said that, it didn’t escape me that the article doesn’t use MPPS for Thrive’s very own opt-in right inside the article for Thrive University at the end ????

  • Todd has the optin before his MPPS. Would you always recommend it last, and as we’re giving away so much on MPPS how would we adjust our follow up post optin because of this? 🙂

  • Hi Thrive, I have a practical question about this method. I really like the concept and it makes so much sense, but yet what the article is saying really is to ditch the “traditional” system of blog posts or articles with lead magnets (dangling the carrot) and instead go for MPPS with opt-in at the end. So in terms of pretty much all your articles and courses (and Thrive Leads) that teach us to use the lead-magnet system, how do we also implement MPPS, as they seem to contradict each other. I am at the beginning stages of designing my “info empire” and MPPS sounds brilliant, but do I then ditch all your rpevious advice about building lead magnets etc?

    • Andrew,

      From my reading, going with both the MPPS and opt-in is not mutually exclusive. The idea is that you ARE providing an opt-in, just later on in the process, so that the folks who opt in are much better, more engaged prospects than they would have been if they had read a blog post (or two) and opted into your list at the end.

      Think about it this way – attention spans being what they are today, it is much harder to get someone to follow you around from page to page to page. If you have someone who is reading and clicking (engaging), and then you present them with the opportunity to opt in, the likelihood that that new subscriber is going to be more invested in reading your emails, and in clicking on your links in those emails, is much higher.

      So the opt-in is still valid; you’re just changing it a bit. In terms of using Thrive, you’re still building out your pages as usual, except that you’re building out several landing pages that have content on them with a “Continue” button, then at the end (3-5 pages after the start), giving them a way to opt into your email list.

      Your previous lead magnets might just become parts of the MPPS, as Robert suggested Matt from Thrive Themes could do easily with his.

      Hopefully that helps!

  • 1/ Do you suggest to remove any opt-in form from my site and just keep one at the end of the MPPS?
    Or do you recommend using this strategy only for specific product launch as a form of sales funnel, while keeping an opt-in forms and some popups elsewhere on my site, starting with my home page?

    2/ For your information, I have only 250 people registered in my list and I never offered them a freebie other than promising to share contents with them in the future. This info may help you calibrate your reply to 1/

  • I have never commented on other articles, but your article is really very good and very informative. Thanks for your work.

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